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'[OT] Knowledge and intelligence'
2009\04\13@145801 by Vitaliy

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solarwind wrote:
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DUH?!

"Smart" is a measure of how quickly and efficiently you can process and
absorb this knowledge.

Vitaliy

2009\04\13@151417 by solarwind

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> "Smart" is a measure of how quickly and efficiently you can process and
> absorb this knowledge.

And how do you envision measuring that? It's like comparing apples to
oranges. An orange is smarter than an apple. What does that even mean?

And by your definition, you can change the efficiency and the rate at
which you process and absorb knowledge. Certain chemicals, such as
those found in fish, change the brain chemistry in a positive way.
Also, certain hormones and chemicals produced by the body may have the
same effect. Also, just plain studying may improve it. For example, I
knew a kid in my math class who was literally failing because he could
not understand how the slope of a graph relates to calculus. That took
him forever to understand. You might call him "dumb", by your
definition, because he was unable to process this knowledge
efficiently. After hours and hours of studying this simple concept, he
finally got it. After that, he started picking up things faster than
you or I. Now would you say he was "smart" because he was picking up
on calculus concepts twice as fast as anyone else in the class?

What does that even mean?

Smart and dumb. You make it sound like a new class of human. Oh, he's
smart. He's dumb. He's black. He's white. Yes, no matter how hard you
try, you can't be white if you're black and vice versa (unless you're
MJ). But it doesn't make any logical sense to tag people as "smart" or
"dumb" because things can drastically change. You can change them.

2009\04\13@160658 by Benjamin Grant

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The idea that you can change innate intelligence is actually insulting in
its lack of truth.  As someone who's grown up tutoring people who are
mentally challenged, I assure you can aid them and help them, but you can't
fundamentally change their IQ. This is a silly argument solarwind, just
because it'd be nice to chalk success up to hard work doesn't make it true.
Success is largely a product of circumstances, including genetics.

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 3:13 PM, solarwind <spam_OUTx.solarwind.xTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2009\04\13@161011 by Vitaliy

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solarwind wrote:
>> "Smart" is a measure of how quickly and efficiently you can process and
>> absorb this knowledge.
>
> And how do you envision measuring that? It's like comparing apples to
> oranges. An orange is smarter than an apple. What does that even mean?

There are plenty of ways. IQ test is one. There is also SAT/ACT (I'm sure
you have equivalents in Canada).

Some math professors give their Calculus students a set of simple algebra
problems in a timed test. Everyone in the class can solve the problems, but
there is a strong corellation between _how quickly_ someone can solve them,
and their final grade in Calculus.

Same test works for programming. Someone who can quickly solve a set of
simple programming problems, will do well with more complex problems, and
vice versa.

As a manager, from time to time I have to sort resumes and conduct
interviews. After you've done it a few times, it's easy to tell the smart
ones from the not-so-smart ones.

Etc, etc.


> And by your definition, you can change the efficiency and the rate at
> which you process and absorb knowledge.

Non sequitur. This does not at all follow from my definition.


> Certain chemicals, such as
> those found in fish, change the brain chemistry in a positive way.
> Also, certain hormones and chemicals produced by the body may have the
> same effect.

True, but the improvement is barely measurable. In first world countries,
very few people are malnourished.


> Also, just plain studying may improve it.

Yes, it may. However, a person with a higher IQ will benefit more from the
mental exercise, and will be smarter than the person with average
intelligence (IQ = 100), doing the same amount of studying.


{Quote hidden}

I wouldn't judge a person's intelligence based on their failure to
understand one concept. Even brilliant people experience mental blocks.
However, if this kid consistently failed to understand other concepts, or it
consistently took him longer than his classmates, I would say he wasn't as
smart as them.


> Smart and dumb. You make it sound like a new class of human. Oh, he's
> smart. He's dumb. He's black. He's white.

Trying to paint me as a racist, is dumb. :)

Different people have different levels of intelligence. Some are smarter
than others. It's a fact of life, learn to accept it.


> Yes, no matter how hard you
> try, you can't be white if you're black and vice versa (unless you're
> MJ). But it doesn't make any logical sense to tag people as "smart" or
> "dumb" because things can drastically change. You can change them.

It's the classical "nature vs nurture" argument. For best results, you need
both.

Vitaliy

2009\04\13@180452 by Herbert Graf

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On Mon, 2009-04-13 at 13:08 -0700, Vitaliy wrote:
> solarwind wrote:
> >> "Smart" is a measure of how quickly and efficiently you can process
> and
> >> absorb this knowledge.
> >
> > And how do you envision measuring that? It's like comparing apples
> to
> > oranges. An orange is smarter than an apple. What does that even
> mean?
>
> There are plenty of ways. IQ test is one. There is also SAT/ACT (I'm
> sure
> you have equivalents in Canada).

FWIW, for those curious, we don't in Ontario.

The only criteria for universities to choose students are their marks in
their final year of high school.

I personally dislike "standardized testing" and think the SAT is very
unfair to certain elements of the population. That said, the way we do
it is equally as bad since going to a "challenging" high school actually
hurts your university chances.

TTYL

2009\04\13@181509 by Benjamin Grant

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Firstly, SATs aren't much of a test for intelligence. Tons of people pay
lots of money for private tutoring and their scores go up drastically. It's
a flawed test for sure. Regardless, the fact that standardize testing fails
doesn't mean there aren't smarter people. Yes, also grade inflation here has
ruined GPAs pretty much too. My GPA in high school would have been higher in
high school if i took a study hall instead of computer programming(honors
classes were worth 4.5, so everyone's GPA is greater than a 4. So by taking
a class worth a 4.0 and getting an A, my GPA dropped).

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Herbert Graf <.....hkgrafKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:

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> -

2009\04\13@182825 by Sean Breheny
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A lot about the SAT has changed since I took it (around 1996-97), but
I can say that when I took it, there were indeed very many ways to
"hack" the test. For example, even though geometry figures explicitly
say "not to scale", they are in fact made to scale so that people
couldn't use the argument that the scale of the figure "misled" them.
Even without using a ruler, one can often rule out one or more answers
by knowing that the figure is to scale.

Also, in the reading comprehension parts, the correct answer to a
question would never be one which was morbid or excessively sad. So,
for example, if the story was about a person who was taken to a
hospital after suddenly falling ill, and one of the questions was
"what happened to the person at the end of the story", and one of the
choices was "C) He died", that can be ruled out without even reading
the text.

That said, most of the SAT is basic enough that I would think that
someone smart enough to apply all these tricks would have done OK
anyway. They might be able to pick up 100 points (out of 800 at the
time), which is significant but not greatly so.

Sean


On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Benjamin Grant <benjamin.grantspamKILLspamduke.edu> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> --

2009\04\14@082101 by Marechiare

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> Same test works for programming. Someone who can
> quickly solve a set of simple programming problems,
> will do well with more complex problems, and vice versa.

That often is not true, there are "fast coders" to solve "simple
programming problems" and there are "problem solvers". These are
different types of mindset.


> Some math professors give their Calculus students a set of simple algebra
> problems in a timed test. Everyone in the class can solve the problems, but
> there is a strong corellation between _how quickly_ someone can solve them,
> and their final grade in Calculus.

It depends upon the University. At some, I beleive, you could get
better marks if you were able to solve the problems others were not
able to solve, even if  they were faster at the simple tasks.


> As a manager, from time to time I have to sort resumes and conduct
> interviews. After you've done it a few times, it's easy to tell the smart
> ones from the not-so-smart ones.

Einstein would fail your interview, most probably :-)

2009\04\14@123650 by Vitaliy

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Marechiare wrote:
>> Same test works for programming. Someone who can
>> quickly solve a set of simple programming problems,
>> will do well with more complex problems, and vice versa.
>
> That often is not true, there are "fast coders" to solve "simple
> programming problems" and there are "problem solvers". These are
> different types of mindset.

Don't take it from me.

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/HighNotes.html


{Quote hidden}

I'm afraid you missed the point. Those who can solve the simple problems
quickly, are found to be better at solving more complex problems.

It seems intuitive/obvious to me. If I don't have to think about the
low-level details, I can better see the big picture. If every time I have to
think about the order of association, I get bogged down in the details.


>> As a manager, from time to time I have to sort resumes and conduct
>> interviews. After you've done it a few times, it's easy to tell the smart
>> ones from the not-so-smart ones.
>
> Einstein would fail your interview, most probably :-)

I have no idea how you arrived at this conclusion.

Vitaliy

2009\04\14@174239 by Michael Algernon

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{Quote hidden}

And sometimes you can't tell.  One guy I worked with was Mike R. and  
he was a breatharian.
He believed he could train his body to live on air alone.  He was the  
skinniest
person you ever saw who could still walk.  He smelled and walked  
around making strange
noises.  I wanted a simple encryption script written and I spent 15  
minutes defining what I
wanted it to do.  I gave him the definition and he looked at it and  
started typing script code.
I walked over to the cooler and got a soft drink and came back to ask  
him when I should
expect the script to work.  He pointed at the printer which was  
spewing out examples of my
encryption scheme.  ( the before and after )  The code was done and I  
never had to change it.

I knew another guy ( Kevin K. ) who liked working on cars and hanging  
out with prostitutes.  He had trouble
landing jobs because he believed in conspiracy theories and barely  
made it out of high school.
I hired him to help me with some electronic design and software coding  
because I thought he
could pick it up.  In a few weeks he was as good as me or better and  
he wrote the most
beautifully simple, commented code I have ever seen... ever.
MA
{Quote hidden}

WF.... ( snip )  ......munication

2009\04\14@203620 by solarwind

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On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Michael Algernon <EraseMEpicspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTnope9.com> wrote:
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I love these classical examples of deception.

2009\04\14@205434 by Vitaliy

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Michael Algernon wrote:
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MA, am I correct in assuming that you are joking? :-)


2009\04\14@213049 by John Day

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At 08:54 PM 4/14/2009, you wrote:
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I doubt he is, because I have had similar experiences over the last 35+ years.

One of the best digital designers I ever knew was very shy, quite
anti-social, probably still a virgin in his early 50's when he died,
blind and infirm from the effects of diabetes he refused to accept.
He once designed a piece of test equipment for disk drives using a
couple of Z80's and around 400 TTL IC's. Beautifully drawn
schematics, full critical path timing diagrams done by hand, wire
wrapped the whole thing, wrote the code all in assembler from hand
written coding sheets all done in pencil also. He used a
macro-assembler he and I had written which ran on a small
minicomputer and it worked first try when it was turned on.

Another time he and I did the block diagram and flow drawings for a
24 bit CPU. We had defined the instruction set. I had to go away for
about three months working, but when I got back the design had been
done and within a few days of me arriving we turned it on. Like
everything I ever saw him do, it worked first time with only some
minor issues in the microcode. The whole thing done in 74-series TTL
with core for the main memory and 1702 type EPROMs for the microcode.

He was totally self-taught. Had all sorts of trouble getting jobs
over the years because people just couldn't accept how good he was,
it was really sad to watch him go downhill over the years, but a
privilege to have known him.

JD



>

2009\04\14@223328 by Vitaliy

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John Day wrote:
>>MA, am I correct in assuming that you are joking? :-)
>
> I doubt he is, because I have had similar experiences over the last 35+
> years.

I am somewhat skeptical about this bit:

>> > I hired him to help me with some electronic design and software coding
>> > because I thought he
>> > could pick it up.  In a few weeks he was as good as me or better and
>> > he wrote the most
>> > beautifully simple, commented code I have ever seen... ever.

I do not see how a person can go from zero to expert in electronic design
and software coding in only "a few weeks".

Vitaliy

2009\04\14@224247 by Vitaliy

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John Day wrote:
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I think the lesson is that in order to be successful, having technical
talent and expertise is not enough. One must have well developed
interpersonal skills as well.

Your story reminded me of Tesla. I feel sad for him, but what happened in
the end, was the direct result of his own impracticality.

Vitaliy

2009\04\14@230438 by solarwind

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On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 10:32 PM, Vitaliy <spamspamspam_OUTmaksimov.org> wrote:
> I do not see how a person can go from zero to expert in electronic design
> and software coding in only "a few weeks".

It's very possible. I went from practically zero knwoedge in biology
last summer to a very high level of knowledge in a "few weeks".
Literally, two textbooks of biology knowledge.

2009\04\14@230641 by solarwind

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On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 10:41 PM, Vitaliy <@spam@spamKILLspamspammaksimov.org> wrote:
> I think the lesson is that in order to be successful, having technical
> talent and expertise is not enough. One must have well developed
> interpersonal skills as well.

Of course, that goes without saying.

> Your story reminded me of Tesla. I feel sad for him, but what happened in
> the end, was the direct result of his own impracticality.

What you have to understand here is that humans are not robots.
Everyone behaves a different way. What's normal to you may not be
normal to someone else. Expecting them to be like you would be selfish
and ignorant. "Impracticality" here is meaningless and out of context.
He was a very well educated person and a hard worker that efficiently
got the job done without distraction. In my opinion, that is very much
practical.

2009\04\15@004343 by William \Chops\ Westfield

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>> MA, am I correct in assuming that you are joking? :-)

I doubt it.  I've certainly met less extreme versions; one of the more  
talented engineers I hired during my days as a manager became somewhat  
famous for announcing to the net at large how he'd drop acid to help  
him solve some of the more difficult problems he'd encounter...

Intelligence, talent, social skills, and interpersonal skills are all  
multi-dimensional and very orthogonal things to try to measure.  It's  
not at all difficult to be very good at something and still have very  
poor skills in some other area.  There was even a recent study/theory  
correlating science and engineering skills with autism and related  
disorders.  ( http://spectrum.ieee.org/oct06/4665/2 )

Solarwind, on the other hand, is destined to live under a bridge and  
hit travelers up for money.  I don't think I've ever seen so many  
troll-like comments (and entire discussion topics) come from one user-
id; the real trolls generally use multiple ids to make it less obvious  
that all the contentious comments are coming from the same person.  :-)

BillW

2009\04\15@005325 by solarwind

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On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:43 AM, William "Chops" Westfield
<KILLspamwestfwKILLspamspammac.com> wrote:
> Solarwind, on the other hand, is destined to live under a bridge and
> hit travelers up for money.  I don't think I've ever seen so many
> troll-like comments (and entire discussion topics) come from one user-
> id; the real trolls generally use multiple ids to make it less obvious
> that all the contentious comments are coming from the same person.  :-)

Hahahaha - you made a funny! Except it wasn't funny :(

2009\04\15@011808 by cdb

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:: olarwind, on the other hand, is destined to live under a bridge and
:::: hit travelers up for money.

Seriously, I have known people who are brilliant at school and have to
their surprise struggled at university or college, and been so upset
and disillusioned  they have had moments where they have considered
stepping off the world. Fortunately those I've known have not gone
that far.

Some time ago there was a TV program here in Ozland that plonked some
very bright 11 - 18 year olds into second year uni. They were all top
of their class in various subjects, one kid about 12 had never failed
an exam in his life, had a high MENSA rating and left all his
classmates for dead when it came to advanced maths and science. He was
devastated when he failed part of his exam and ONLY got 70% he thought
this was the end of the world, he'd never had below 96% in his whole
school life.

Big fish going into bigger ponds definitely become the small fry.

Colin
--
cdb, RemoveMEcolinTakeThisOuTspambtech-online.co.uk on 15/04/2009

Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk  

Hosted by:  http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=7988359







2009\04\15@023705 by Michael Algernon

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>
> On Apr 14, 2009, at 10:53 PM, solarwind wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:43 AM, William "Chops" Westfield
> <spamBeGonewestfwspamBeGonespammac.com> wrote:
>> Solarwind, on the other hand, is destined to live under a bridge and
>> hit travelers up for money.  I don't think I've ever seen so many
>> troll-like comments (and entire discussion topics) come from one  
>> user-
>> id; the real trolls generally use multiple ids to make it less  
>> obvious
>> that all the contentious comments are coming from the same  
>> person.  :-)
>
> Hahahaha - you made a funny! Except it wasn't funny :(
>
If I could bet on SW's future, I would guess it will be very bright.
 I just don't know if I will like which side of the fence(s) he ends  
up on.
But I am guessing he will be a powerhouse.
MA


2009\04\15@043548 by Russell McMahon

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>>> hit travelers up for money.  I don't think I've ever seen so many
>>> troll-like comments (and entire discussion topics) come from one  
>>> user-

Sorry.
I'm having a slow year.
Too much travelling.
I'll try to do better this year.


 Russell.

2009\04\15@091311 by Peter

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Vitaliy <spam <at> maksimov.org> writes:
> I'm afraid you missed the point. Those who can solve the simple problems
> quickly, are found to be better at solving more complex problems.

That is so not true, same as scaling man-hours by assigning more than one man to
solve the task. There are two sets of mindsets in any problem-solving situation:
fast solving of 'standard' problems relevant to the domain, mostly using first
order logic and calculus, and *non*-fast solving of complex nonlinear
out-of-the-box problems relevant to the domain. 'Relevant to the domain' means
that the idiotic questions related to what would the job applicant do with three
bananas when having to feed two hungry monkeys and two hungry children do not
apply for any kind of engineering job. That kind of monkey question is probably
good for finding out whether the applicant would be a good conversation partner
at the annual steak and salad bar company outing, at best.

The 'fast' problem solving speed gives an idea of how one would perform in a
production environment, likely under pressure. The 'slow' speed (and the ability
to find workable solutions to hairy real life problems in reasonable time and at
reasonable cost), determines whether the applicant has any hope to become a
developer capable to carry ideas from abstract to solder outside a unionized
government lab with unlimited funding and time, as opposed to the production
engineer type skills represented by the 'fast' solvers. The 'slow' problems
usually cannot be solved by people who apply things learned by rote and who do
not have the experience to choose the out of the box solution that will really
work and be implementable (no (0) Naquada powered fusion reactors allowed in the
solution, Saint-Venant is important in engineering even if religion is not, and
'electricity does not flow inside insulated wires').

Afaik most tests (I don't know about SAT) mix problems of both types into the
set of tests, and with good reason. From what I read about the writing and
evaluation of tests, anyone who is not a trained psychologist with relevant
statistics training, as pertaining to test scoring and result interpretation,
would best serve his interests by purchasing relevant test sets from companies
or universities which *do* have these credentials, and abstain from tweaking the
results thereof at all costs. Whether or not he should also use additional
testing methods, is up to him. In any case the 'standard' tests yield a point
score and the test instructions show what can be considered a passing score, and
why. There is no black/white testing solution.

I am sorry if I sound like giving advice here, because I am not. I am just
relaying my conclusion, which is consolidated by several tests taken by me and
by others with whom I have discussed the matter. Proper tests, which reflect the
real qualities of the testees, seem to have a few charactristics in common:
- they are composed of many unrelated questions (>>10 and nearer 50 to 100)
- all the questions are relevant to the field in some way. no monkeys.
- some questions are hard, most are not so
- they have a biased scoring sheet (no yes/no answers, multiple choice questions
with more than one or zero solutions allowed per, for at least some questions)
- some questions require calculus and inserting numeric or equation results, but
most don't. technology is not calculus.
- they take less than 3 hours to complete in any case, often under one hour, and
the testing time is limited, often per question but not necessarily - this
measures speed too.
- *none* of the good tests are made by recruiters, company bosses looking for a
recruit, engineers looking for a job applicant or a HR department employee who
thinks she has read enough books to write one.
- they have very specific scoring rules (not linear) and they *warn* about not
removing any questions from the test set(s)

The way I understand it, the reason for not 'writing your own' test is the same
as that given for not writing your own 'secure, unbreakable crypto algorythm'.
There is more to the issue than meets the eye, and failure is basically
pre-programmed if attempting it blindly, due to the bewildering set of factors
that can break the test or bias its results. The people who create tests have
access to relevant statistics and to test methods (biased questions etc) which
compensate for the problems that appear. A casual test writer probably has no
clue about what skews a test in what direction and why, even if he can write
meaningful technical test questions.

 Peter


2009\04\15@100852 by John Ferrell

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This has been a very interesting thread.

I think nearly all of the observations are valid. They differ mainly because
of the different circumstances and experiences of those who choose to post
rather than lurk!

Most of us have encountered the extremes of the "educated" guys. The fellow
with nearly no education that seems to succeed without trying and the one
who has all the credentials but has so far been a liability where ever he
goes.

Most of the time credentials get you the opportunities but your own
intellect and social skills bring you success.

John Ferrell  W8CCW

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Edmund Burke
...."The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other
people's money."
  MARGARET THATCHER
http://DixieNC.US

2009\04\15@110601 by Peter

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solarwind <x.solarwind.x <at> gmail.com> writes:
> It's very possible. I went from practically zero knwoedge in biology
> last summer to a very high level of knowledge in a "few weeks".
> Literally, two textbooks of biology knowledge.

I hope that the inside of your cheek hurts from pushing it hard with your tongue
while writing this. 'Literally' two textbooks worth of biology 'knowledge'
reflects, at best, at market value, the cash value of the books. Probably under
$100 in all, both together. Your current level probably includes the ability to
repeat any of the reasonings and Latin names described in those two books with
reasonably low error rate.

Peter


2009\04\15@114053 by solarwind

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On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 11:05 AM, Peter <TakeThisOuTplpeter2006EraseMEspamspam_OUTyahoo.com> wrote:
> I hope that the inside of your cheek hurts from pushing it hard with your tongue
> while writing this. 'Literally' two textbooks worth of biology 'knowledge'
> reflects, at best, at market value, the cash value of the books. Probably under
> $100 in all, both together. Your current level probably includes the ability to
> repeat any of the reasonings and Latin names described in those two books with
> reasonably low error rate.
>
> Peter

That is an extremely ignorant statement on your part. I have not
referred to which biology textbooks I have read. For as far as you can
tell, they could be medical textbooks or anatomy textbooks. Your
general assumption that my skill level at this point does not exceed
the mere regurgitation of facts is again very highly ignorant and
reflects on your obnoxious, presumptuous attitude.

I hope you did not pain your parents in the same way that you are
bringing embarrassment to this list by posting such ignorant garbage.

Besides, I bet that the knowledge that have could be summed up in a
textbook or two at best as well :)

2009\04\15@120651 by Roger, in Bangkok

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Hey Peter--

Methinks the young lad could do with other than a tongue firmly implanted in
between cheeks :-))  But then again, I suppose I could be mistaken about
that:-))

Amazingly enough, with a little bit of luck, even this one will one day
become an adult human being as well.

Regards/Roger, in Bangkok

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:40 PM, solarwind <RemoveMEx.solarwind.xspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 11:05 AM, Peter <plpeter2006EraseMEspam.....yahoo.com> wrote:
> I hope that the inside of your cheek hurts from pushing it hard with your
tongue
> while writing this. 'Literally' two textbooks worth of biology 'knowledge'
> reflects, at best, at market value, the cash value of the books. Probably
under
> $100 in all, both together. Your current level probably includes the
ability to
> repeat any of the reasonings and Latin names described in those two books
with
> reasonably low error rate.
>
> Peter

That is ...  >>> childish tantrum bits snipped>>> ... as well :)

2009\04\15@122604 by Bob Blick

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On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:06:20 +0700, "Roger, in Bangkok"
<EraseMEmerciesspamcscoms.com> said:

> Amazingly enough, with a little bit of luck, even this one will one day
> become an adult human being as well.

Perhaps the adults on this list will do a little growing up, too.

The ossified brains on the list perhaps don't remember what it was like
to be young, how ridiculous it was to hear old people say "we are old
and smart" when it looked like they were slow and pompous.

Why not put some of that old and smart to good use, and think about what
you did to succeed back when you were growing up, and share that?

Otherwise we will need to close this thread. Pissing contests further no
good purpose on the Piclist.

Thanks,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service.

2009\04\15@123609 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Besides, I bet that the knowledge that have could be
>summed up in a textbook or two at best as well :)

Knowledge might, but experience, now that is something else, and you don't
get that from a text book !!!

2009\04\15@125251 by solarwind

picon face
On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Alan B. Pearce
<RemoveMEAlan.B.PearceEraseMEspamEraseMEstfc.ac.uk> wrote:
> Knowledge might, but experience, now that is something else, and you don't
> get that from a text book !!!

Word.

2009\04\15@125946 by Rolf

flavicon
face
Bob Blick wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Bob.

Perhaps you are right. And, I thought I did...

I said that everyone entering university has expectations on how things
will turn out. I also said that everyone entering university ends up
discovering that somewhere, their expectations are wrong.

I said that successful students are able to identify where their
expectations are wrong, and to identify what the reality actually is,
and to adjust to that reality.

I also said that the same is true for university graduates entering the
work force.

In return I was told that I was simply wrong, I make incorrect
assumptions, my experience in South Africa has no relevance in Canada,
and that I will be out of work in two years, that I know 'nothing', and
that my name is a joke. The implication was strong that solarwind is
'above' me (perhaps everyone else), and that I am an idiot.

It is hard to find it in myself to respond to solarwind positively any more.

I would love to find a way to 'rise above' my resentment.... any
suggestions? From my perspective solarwind will have to wait for life to
deliver a blow to his ego... until then he will simply be insufferable.
The difference between experience, intelligence,  and knowledge.

Rolf

2009\04\15@134621 by Roger, in Bangkok

face
flavicon
face
I absolutely agree Bob, and that is exactly what I do every day, right here
in the slums of Bangkok and the outer impoverished provinces.  Unfortunately
what works so very well for me here is considered to be of little to no use
in the first world. You folks don't repair consumer goods, but we do ...
even after you ship them half way around the world to dump in our back
yards.  And thanks ever so much because we make really good money off of it,
get some of our families off of welfare and can even fix up our communities
without need of quite so much of your NGO welfare that serves mainly to
increase our dependence on you.

BTW, "you" does not necessarily pertain to any particular person or group on
this list or any other ... and "I" or "we" may or may not pertain to me as
an individual, depending on time place and circumstance.

There's absolutely nothing I love better than teaching youngsters
troubleshooting and repair to component levels ... especially those rare
occasions when I get the opportunity to work with young military recruits in
the Thai army's avionics school here.  That's especially rewarding since I
can teach avionics on Chinook CH47 helicopters systems which was what I did
for nearly 4 years during the VN war.

So you see Bob, none of this really fis well under [OT} and as yet we don't
have an [exceedingly boring] tag :-))

No pissing at all from me, sorry if it's mis[-perceived in that way.  Seems
to me that if one young whipper snapper can be allowed to troll freely, then
a few of us Olde Phartez should be able to wet a line as well:-))

I was going to tell about 14 year old Somkiat from the Prapadaeng Leprosy
Center who now earns twice the pay I get after bering given the chance to
restart his education and formaising it in a technical high school here
several years ago.  I'll save that for another time though ...

Regards/Roger, in Bangkok

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Bob Blick <RemoveMEbobblickTakeThisOuTspamspamftml.net> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2009\04\15@152506 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face

On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 00:46:05 +0700, "Roger, in Bangkok"
<RemoveMEmerciesKILLspamspamcscoms.com> said:

> No pissing at all from me, sorry if it's mis[-perceived in that way.
> Seems
> to me that if one young whipper snapper can be allowed to troll freely,
> then
> a few of us Olde Phartez should be able to wet a line as well:-))

Hi Roger,

Sorry, I did not mean to single you out, most of my emails have been
offlist directly to others.

I think a lot of people have been well-meaning in their emails, but they
missed the target. Information has to be palatable and tailored to the
perspective of the receiver, otherwise the desired information transfer
is not guaranteed.

On the other hand, yours and Rolf's current responses seem pretty well
thought-out, so things do seem to be working out.

Cheerful regards,

Bob


--
http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be

2009\04\15@161944 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 3:13 PM, solarwind <x.solarwind.xSTOPspamspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
>> "Smart" is a measure of how quickly and efficiently you can process and
>> absorb this knowledge.
>
> And how do you envision measuring that? It's like comparing apples to
> oranges. An orange is smarter than an apple. What does that even mean?

There are essentially three parts of intelligence that are useful for
engineering.  Please note that they may or may not apply to other
fields or educational methods.

1. Knowledge - The facts or information you know.  Multiplication
tables.  Concepts, ideas.  Etc.  The ability in particular to learn
and understand new knowledge.
2. Analysis - the ability to decompose a system into small enough bits
that you can apply your knowledge to it and determine what, why, how
it works (or doesn't, int he case of diagnosis)
3. Synthesis - the ability to create a system, or modify an existing
system by applying knowledge and analysis to it, then determining how
best to meet the requirements of the design.

Smart is generally defined in this field as a person who is proficient
at all three such that they can do them "better than average" in terms
of time, space, cost, or other scarce resources.  It does not in any
way mean that average people can't do these things, nor does it mean
that a smart person is always better than an average person.  But on
average, they take less time, resources, etc to accomplish the same
work.

Whether they gained such ability through hard work, experience, and
determination, or it "came easily to them" is irrelevant to this
discussion.  Smart can only be measured given a narrow focus at a
particular point in time, and will change over time depending on a
variety of factors.

I know someone who can name every part of a horse, ride them
perfectly, groom them, provide basic care, diagnose problems, train
them, etc.  They can talk at length and depth about the history of
horses throughout the world, breeding, competition, types of work each
breed can handle best, etc.  They haven't the faintest clue what a
transister is or does.  I, on the other hand, have a great deal of
knowledge about software, computers, electronics, gadgets, etc.

I'm horse dumb.  They are electronics dumb.  Neither of us are dumb in
general, or stupid, etc.  Nor are either of us smart in general.  Only
in specific niche subjects can the three areas of intelligence be
measured and compared.

And yes, it is useful to understand how to measure such things, if for
no other reason than being able to determine very quickly what level
of understanding your audience has when communicating and using that
information to give them what they need regardless of their ability to
work in your field.

If you can't communicate well then you will experience a lot more
friction in your life than is necessary.

-Adam

2009\04\15@162424 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Peter wrote:
> Vitaliy <spam <at> maksimov.org> writes:
>> I'm afraid you missed the point. Those who can solve the simple problems
>> quickly, are found to be better at solving more complex problems.
>
> That is so not true,

Peter, do you realize that you wrote a two-page essay, that again completely
misses the point? What does what I wrote above, have to do with
monkey/banana tests?


> - *none* of the good tests are made by recruiters, company bosses looking
> for a
> recruit, engineers looking for a job applicant or a HR department employee
> who
> thinks she has read enough books to write one.

This is completely off topic, but may I ask how you came to that conclusion?
I'm an engineer and a manager, and I've interviewed close to 100 people over
our 7 years in business, using interview questions and tests that we
ourselves put together. And yes, many of the questions came from the books
I've read, on hiring and management.

Hiring is an art and a craft, in the same way programming is. It has its own
set of tools and practices, and in order to become good at it, you have to
have the proper knowledge, experience, and a bit of talent.

Vitaliy

2009\04\15@163641 by Chris Smolinski

flavicon
face
>This is completely off topic, but may I ask how you came to that conclusion?
>I'm an engineer and a manager, and I've interviewed close to 100 people over
>our 7 years in business, using interview questions and tests that we
>ourselves put together. And yes, many of the questions came from the books
>I've read, on hiring and management.

One company I worked for, we had a test that we gave to prospective
engineering and technician candidates. It contained mostly "basic"
material. I still remember one of the questions, it concerned diodes.
It had several figures, each containing a diode and resistor, and a
sine wave input, you had to draw the output. Really basic stuff. But
you'd be amazed how many people didn't know the correct answers. We
found that it was an excellent way to filter out duds. Of course,
after we were acquired by a large company which will go nameless, we
were told to stop giving the test by their HR dept.
--

---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com

2009\04\15@164209 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Rolf wrote:
> From my perspective solarwind will have to wait for life to
> deliver a blow to his ego...

I came to roughly the same conclusion.

Vitaliy

2009\04\15@180707 by Peter

picon face
Vitaliy <spam <at> maksimov.org> writes:
> Peter, do you realize that you wrote a two-page essay, that again completely
> misses the point? What does what I wrote above, have to do with
> monkey/banana tests?

It was an oblique reference to 'personality' tests so often administered and
discussed on this list in other threads.

> > - *none* of the good tests are made by recruiters, company bosses looking
> This is completely off topic, but may I ask how you came to that conclusion?

Part of my career was a 12 year stint in the electronics at a certain company.
During most of that time I was the senior technician and had a veto right on
hiring, which was unfortunately over-ridden numerous times. I also taught
briefly in a vocational school, directly what our major work object was.

During that time my manager who was also the owner of the company made hiring
decisions based on his interviews, which resulted in disastrous candidates
being hired. I had a veto right on hiring, being the senior technician, and
having my own practical tests and interview with candidates. Every time the
manager oerrode my veto we had a dud employee. Due to the nature of the work,
bad work meant immediate losses in the hundreds to thousands of $ per unit.

His interviews were based on whatever, mine were based on work tests
(practical), reading technical English (in a non-english speaking country),
schematics interpretation and basics like color codes and circuit
interpretation by schematic (which were in English).

While teaching I had a better view of the class 'from above'. Most pupils were
mature electronic technicians taking that course to improve themselves, often
paying for it themselves. Several ran their own businesses. Informal testing
among them resulted in my opinion of no more than 2 of 10 being asked to an
interview at our company. When it came to that, I proposed one of the good
ones to the manager as a candidate (after the candidate had passed my
testing).

The manager did not even bother interviewing him. I did bother to check whether
the candidate had done something (like asking for compensation out of the range
we could offer). He did not. Some of the worst people I ever worked with (and
had to teach on the job) were selected by that manager and his secret Ouija
board.

One of the candidates I endorsed and he rejected set up shop 2 streets
down from where we were located and became our major competitor. Years later I
nearly went into business with him, and he is still a good friend, and a good
worker (he wasn't quite at the time I met him, he came from a different branch
of technology and learned).

The manager was an engineer in the domain we were in, he had worked for many
years for a major manufacturer on similar products and then set up shop
himself, securing a franchise from a large manufacturer to boot. Plus we were
on very good terms until his hick hiring policy managed to spoil that (it took
a while, several years, and a particularly misfit employee hired over my head
as above).

In all, it was a good 12 year stint, but thinking back about what could have
been better, definitely the new hires would have made a world of a difference.

My '2 page essays' are due to the fact that I can type quite fast (English
*and* code, as needed ...)

Peter


2009\04\16@125121 by Marechiare

picon face
> Peter, do you realize that you wrote a two-page essay,
> that again completely misses the point? What does
> what I wrote above, have to do with monkey/banana tests?

I am not Peter. But, I, too, beleive, his post might be shorter.
I'd resize it to:

=======
> I'm afraid you missed the point. Those who can
> solve the simple problems quickly, are found to
> be better at solving more complex problems.

That is so not true, same as scaling man-hours by assigning more than
one man to solve the task. There are two sets of mindsets in any
problem-solving situation: fast solving of 'standard' problems
relevant to the domain, mostly using first
order logic and calculus, and *non*-fast solving of complex nonlinear
out-of-the-box problems relevant to the domain. '
...
The 'fast' problem solving speed gives an idea of how one would
perform in a production environment, likely under pressure.

The 'slow' speed (and the ability to find workable solutions to fairy
real life problems in reasonable time and at
reasonable cost), determines whether the applicant has any hope to
become a developer capable to carry ideas from abstract to solder
outside a unionized government lab with unlimited funding and time, as
opposed to the production
engineer type skills represented by the 'fast' solvers.

The 'slow' problems usually cannot be solved by people who apply
things learned by rote and who do not have the experience to choose
the out of the box solution that will really work and be implementable
...

=======

Completely on the topic, as for me.

2009\04\16@135914 by Clint Sharp

picon face
In message <27F68A2906B74580902F96873C608597@ws11>, Vitaliy
<spamBeGonespamSTOPspamspamEraseMEmaksimov.org> writes
>Rolf wrote:
>> From my perspective solarwind will have to wait for life to
>> deliver a blow to his ego...
>
>I came to roughly the same conclusion.
Me too, I met plenty of 'Solarwinds'  when a part of my job was to
mentor university students on their work experience month (or six if I
liked them and could persuade them to stay a while).

A couple went on to be inspired engineers because they took pleasure in
the subject and had 'the knack' but most were just there because they'd
been told it was a career that would earn them a good salary and had
little to no interest in the subject beyond what they needed to gain
employment.

As a result, for the past 18 years I've not believed in certificates of
education as proof of ability, far too easy to obtain without actually
caring about your subject but HR departments make it difficult to see
beyond the paperwork for any company unlucky enough to be cursed with
one that has involvement in tech hiring.

>Vitaliy

--
Clint Sharp

2009\04\16@140249 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Peter wrote:
>> > - *none* of the good tests are made by recruiters, company bosses
>> > looking
>> This is completely off topic, but may I ask how you came to that
>> conclusion?
>
> Part of my career was a 12 year stint in the electronics at a certain
> company.
> During most of that time I was the senior technician and had a veto right
> on
> hiring, which was unfortunately over-ridden numerous times. I also taught
> briefly in a vocational school, directly what our major work object was.
>
[snip]

Thanks for sharing the story. However, as I've said earlier, your sweeping
statement above ("*none* of the good tests..") holds no water. It may have
been true with your boss, but it's definitely not true always.


> My '2 page essays' are due to the fact that I can type quite fast (English
> *and* code, as needed ...)

Sorry, this doesn't make sense either. :-)

I can type reasonably fast, but when I post long messages, it is because I'm
too busy (or too lazy) to edit them. Good communication involves saying more
with less.

In my experience, typing speed has very little to do with a programmer's
productivity. I can type twice as fast as my partner, but he can easily
outprogram me.

Vitaliy

2009\04\16@145949 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Clint Sharp wrote:
>>> From my perspective solarwind will have to wait for life to
>>> deliver a blow to his ego...
>>
>>I came to roughly the same conclusion.
> Me too, I met plenty of 'Solarwinds'  when a part of my job was to
> mentor university students on their work experience month (or six if I
> liked them and could persuade them to stay a while).
>
> A couple went on to be inspired engineers because they took pleasure in
> the subject and had 'the knack' but most were just there because they'd
> been told it was a career that would earn them a good salary and had
> little to no interest in the subject beyond what they needed to gain
> employment.
>
> As a result, for the past 18 years I've not believed in certificates of
> education as proof of ability, far too easy to obtain without actually
> caring about your subject but HR departments make it difficult to see
> beyond the paperwork for any company unlucky enough to be cursed with
> one that has involvement in tech hiring.

This is not actually what I meant. SW seems to have a genuine interest in
electronics, but he is overconfident to the point of immodesty. I think what
Rolf meant was, no amount of lecturing will get SW to change his attitude,
so we'll just have to wait for reality to punch him in the face a few times.
Several people already related how failing or even just getting a bad grade
for a course, can reduce one to tears. Not getting the job you want, or
getting fired from one, is arguably even worse.

I'm sure in the end, he'll turn out just fine.

Vitaliy

2009\04\16@152334 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Bob Blick wrote:
>> Amazingly enough, with a little bit of luck, even this one will one day
>> become an adult human being as well.
>
> Perhaps the adults on this list will do a little growing up, too.
>
> The ossified brains on the list perhaps don't remember what it was like
> to be young, how ridiculous it was to hear old people say "we are old
> and smart" when it looked like they were slow and pompous.

I wasn't much older than SW when I joined the list. I do not remember acting
like SW.


> Why not put some of that old and smart to good use, and think about what
> you did to succeed back when you were growing up, and share that?

It's hard to do this when the newbie who you're trying to share your
experience with, constantly toots his own horn, talks nonsense, and insults
you and your peers.

"Grown up" is a state of mind.

Vitaliy

2009\04\16@154230 by solarwind

picon face
On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:59 PM, Vitaliy <KILLspamspamspamBeGonespammaksimov.org> wrote:
> This is not actually what I meant. SW seems to have a genuine interest in
> electronics

Word.

> , but he is overconfident to the point of immodesty.

Wrong.

> I think what
> Rolf meant was, no amount of lecturing will get SW to change his attitude,

I will if I ever find fault in it.

> so we'll just have to wait for reality to punch him in the face a few times.

Never going to happen. Everyone has ups and downs, you just gotta take
it lightly and keep going. You all seem like the negative kind of
people that would sulk on failures and disappointments and
mid-life-crisis. Lighten up and keep going. Life is too short.

> Several people already related how failing or even just getting a bad grade
> for a course, can reduce one to tears.

It can, but it shouldn't.
> Not getting the job you want, or
> getting fired from one, is arguably even worse.

In the end, it should all turn out fine. If it doesn't, what's the
worst that could happen? You turn out homeless? Poor job? No wife? No
kids? No fun? No life? Yeah right. There's always a way out if you can
really try. I believe it is your (not you specifically Vitaliy)
attitudes that need changing. Not mine.

> I'm sure in the end, he'll turn out just fine.

Word.

> Vitaliy

Can you tell me how to pronounce your name please? :P

2009\04\16@164527 by Michael Algernon

flavicon
face

{Quote hidden}

What is wrong with immodesty ?  Even if reality punches one in the face,
one can still remain immodest.  So far SW has demonstrated a high level
of ability ( or he really is good at faking it ) .  So maybe he can  
walk the
talk most of the time.
MA

2009\04\16@231756 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Michael Algernon wrote:
> What is wrong with immodesty ?

It's annoying. Plus, being immodestly overconfident hurts one's chances of
learning from other people's experience.


> Even if reality punches one in the face,
> one can still remain immodest.

True.


> So far SW has demonstrated a high level
> of ability ( or he really is good at faking it ) .  So maybe he can
> walk the
> talk most of the time.

Show me the calculator! :)

2009\04\16@232819 by solarwind

picon face
On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Vitaliy <EraseMEspamspamEraseMEmaksimov.org> wrote:
> Show me the calculator! :)

You do realize that managing high marks in school for scholarships and
spending hours on hobbies at the same time is not possible. You only
get to pick one. I already chose. However, summer is nearing and when
I do finish it, you'll be the first one to know :)

2009\04\16@233050 by solarwind

picon face
On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:28 PM, solarwind <@spam@x.solarwind.x@spam@spamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Vitaliy <spamBeGonespamspamKILLspammaksimov.org> wrote:
>> Show me the calculator! :)
>
> You do realize that managing high marks in school for scholarships and
> spending hours on hobbies at the same time is not possible. You only
> get to pick one. I already chose. However, summer is nearing and when
> I do finish it, you'll be the first one to know :)

Besides, I already finished my PICKIT2 GUI for Linux (well, it does
its job) and learning new things about electronics every day
(somehow). And I really don't have to prove myself to you or anybody
else on this list (no offense). I really don't care what you guys
think of me. I'm just here to ask questions, discuss and learn.

-- [solarwind] --

2009\04\16@233802 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
solarwind wrote:
>> , but he is overconfident to the point of immodesty.
>
> Wrong.

You said.


>> I think what
>> Rolf meant was, no amount of lecturing will get SW to change his
>> attitude,
>
> I will if I ever find fault in it.

What if the fault is the failure to find fault?


>> so we'll just have to wait for reality to punch him in the face a few
>> times.
>
> Never going to happen. Everyone has ups and downs, you just gotta take
> it lightly and keep going. You all seem like the negative kind of
> people that would sulk on failures and disappointments and
> mid-life-crisis. Lighten up and keep going. Life is too short.

You made me smile. :)

Let me tell you a parable. A woman (W) calls her husband (H) to warn him of
a dangerous driver:

W: Honey, be careful. I just saw on the news that some idiot is driving on
the freeway in the wrong direction.

H: Yes honey, I see him! And he's not alone! There are tens of them! No,
hundreds!

Now, maybe you *are* Galileo, but then you shouldn't be surprised that
people with pitchforks want to burn you at the stake.


>> Not getting the job you want, or
>> getting fired from one, is arguably even worse.
>
> In the end, it should all turn out fine. If it doesn't, what's the
> worst that could happen? You turn out homeless? Poor job? No wife? No
> kids? No fun? No life? Yeah right. There's always a way out if you can
> really try.

And you know this, how? This is exactly the problem: you think you're so
smart and know everything, and we're all full of it. Last I heard, you don't
even have a job?


> I believe it is your (not you specifically Vitaliy)
> attitudes that need changing. Not mine.

Yes, Galileo.


>> I'm sure in the end, he'll turn out just fine.
>
> Word.

Word.


>> Vitaliy
>
> Can you tell me how to pronounce your name please? :P

Sure. I like it when people pronounce it "Your Majesty, Sir"*.

Vitaliy




*Or you can try:

http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Vitaly

2009\04\16@235058 by solarwind

picon face
On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:37 PM, Vitaliy <.....spamspam_OUTspammaksimov.org> wrote:
> You said.

What?


> What if the fault is the failure to find fault?

Then I guess I'm not the only one with that problem.

> You made me smile. :)

:)

> Let me tell you a parable. A woman (W) calls her husband (H) to warn him of
> a dangerous driver:
>
> W: Honey, be careful. I just saw on the news that some idiot is driving on
> the freeway in the wrong direction.
>
> H: Yes honey, I see him! And he's not alone! There are tens of them! No,
> hundreds!

Now that made me smile! I don't know how it relates to me though...

> Now, maybe you *are* Galileo, but then you shouldn't be surprised that
> people with pitchforks want to burn you at the stake.

I honestly can't name one person who I know in real life. Really.

> And you know this, how? This is exactly the problem: you think you're so
> smart and know everything

No, I don't. You do.

> and we're all full of it. Last I heard, you don't
> even have a job?

Again with the personal assumptions. For the record, I do have a very
good job and I'm pleased to brag on this mailing list (though I don't
know why I bother) that the employers are so satisfied with my
performance that I have the third highest paying rank where I work.

> Word.

:)

> http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Vitaly

Very cool.

2009\04\17@000308 by Benjamin Grant

flavicon
face
This post is confusing to me. Firstly, I'm confused has typing quickly leads
to long posts. I believe I type at about 100 wpm and haven't been
particularly wordy. Of course maybe I just know nothing. Solarwind, your
confidence in the fact that you'll never change is kind of ridiculous. Spend
a few months in Africa -- you're pride in your ability to obtain
scholarships or whatever academic/hobbyist achievements you've accomplished
will diminish. I know you're not from the states so perhaps you think duke
isn't a good school but I assure you it's got a decent reputation in my
major at least. Anyway, coming here I wasn't as immodest as you but I was
pretty confident in my own intelligent.  I'll be graduating with honors at
Duke so it's not like I can't hack it but just after traveling and meeting
people you realize a couple of things. Firstly, there's plenty of people
with honors from good schools, doesn't really matter. Secondly, real life is
far removed from such things. Seriously, take some time, go some where
people worry about their next meal. We're a product of our circumstances:
decent family's, opportunities, money. We can't take credit for much that we
are, so just don't be so proud all the time.

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:50 PM, solarwind <TakeThisOuTx.solarwind.x.....spamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2009\04\17@003909 by solarwind

picon face
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Benjamin Grant
<.....benjamin.grantspamRemoveMEduke.edu> wrote:
> Seriously, take some time, go some where
> people worry about their next meal. We're a product of our circumstances:
> decent family's, opportunities, money. We can't take credit for much that we
> are, so just don't be so proud all the time.

You have _NO_ idea about my life. No idea. None whatsoever. Not even
the slightest inkling. So can we please stop with the personal
assumptions already? Seriously, it's pissing me off. This is what I'm
talking about. It's not my attitude that needs changing. You have no
idea where I've been, seen, done or anything. Why don't you actually
go to a place where you literally see people starving to death or
people's stomachs getting so large you could practically pop it with a
pin (not large due to fat or overeating). You've seen next to nothing
and yet you are quite pleased with yourself because you think you've
"been there, done that". No. No you havn't. So stop telling me that I
know nothing. You have no idea who you're dealing with. (It's not a
threat.)

I would normally never make a post like this and not make a big deal
but this is pushing it too far. You think I'm the kind of person that
would worry that the sixth mcdonalds in my area is closing down? Think
again pal, think again.

Why the **** do you think I'm trying to become a doctor? You have any
idea how hard that is? Apparently not. Let me put it into perspective,
my friend. You know how hard you worked to become an engineer? Ya.
Twice that effort.

Thank you.

PS Bob, please let this through. Please.

2009\04\17@004251 by Marcel Duchamp

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Benjamin Grant wrote:
>I'll be graduating with honors at Duke

Congratulations.  After you leave Duke (unless you stay for grad school)
keep us posted on your goings on.  You sound like you will have a very
interesting future.

Good luck.

2009\04\17@005346 by Benjamin Grant

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Marcel.. if your post was sincere, thank you. If not and you're mocking my
arrogance, that's fair as well, but take my apology along with the fact that
I was attempting, poorly, to illustrate a point.
Solarwind, I understand your frustration with my post. I, however, have 4
uncles who are all trauma surgeons, a sister in her 4th year of medical
school, mom with an MD, grandpa with an Md and three cousins currently in
medical school.  What i'm trying to impress upon you is you're too impressed
by things like an MD. I took all of the pre-med classes, so not sure what
you mean trying to become a doctor would be so much harder. Seriously,
please don't tell me about the difficulty of become a doctor. Have plenty of
friends that are pre-med, taken their classes, played that game, not
impressed. There are wonderful doctors in the world, but not going to become
an MD just because it's seen by some(you) as a pinnacle of achievement.
I've decided to get a PhD at Rice in bioengineering... a field i'm more
interested in for its possible implications on global health. Specifically,
point of care devices. Anyway, others were right. You're not listening.
Don't really blame you. Best
Ben

2009\04\17@005615 by Benjamin Grant

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"You have _NO_ idea about my life. No idea. None whatsoever. Not even
the slightest inkling. So can we please stop with the personal
assumptions already? Seriously, it's pissing me off. This is what I'm
talking about. It's not my attitude that needs changing. You have no
idea where I've been, seen, done or anything. Why don't you actually
go to a place where you literally see people starving to death or
people's stomachs getting so large you could practically pop it with a
pin (not large due to fat or overeating). You've seen next to nothing
and yet you are quite pleased with yourself because you think you've
"been there, done that". No. No you havn't. So stop telling me that I
know nothing. You have no idea who you're dealing with. (It's not a
threat.)"
Also... what are you talking about? I've spent lots of time in the
developing world... not sure where you're going with that argument. I speak
swahili, volunteer in east africa. Although there's some pretty horrible
poverty in Durham to be honest.

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 12:53 AM, Benjamin Grant <RemoveMEbenjamin.grantspamspamBeGoneduke.edu>wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2009\04\17@010548 by solarwind

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On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 12:53 AM, Benjamin Grant
<spamBeGonebenjamin.grant@spam@spamspam_OUTduke.edu> wrote:
> Marcel.. if your post was sincere, thank you. If not and you're mocking my
> arrogance, that's fair as well, but take my apology along with the fact that
> I was attempting, poorly, to illustrate a point.
> Solarwind, I understand your frustration with my post. I, however, have 4
> uncles who are all trauma surgeons, a sister in her 4th year of medical
> school, mom with an MD, grandpa with an Md and three cousins currently in
> medical school.  What i'm trying to impress upon you is you're too impressed
> by things like an MD. I took all of the pre-med classes, so not sure what
> you mean trying to become a doctor would be so much harder. Seriously,
> please don't tell me about the difficulty of become a doctor. Have plenty of
> friends that are pre-med, taken their classes, played that game, not
> impressed. There are wonderful doctors in the world, but not going to become
> an MD just because it's seen by some(you) as a pinnacle of achievement.
>  I've decided to get a PhD at Rice in bioengineering... a field i'm more
> interested in for its possible implications on global health. Specifically,
> point of care devices. Anyway, others were right. You're not listening.
> Don't really blame you. Best
> Ben

Anyone can be a crappy doctor. To be good at something, you have to
have a passion for it (as someone already pointed out.

2009\04\17@010633 by solarwind

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On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 1:05 AM, solarwind <TakeThisOuTx.solarwind.xspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
>> Anyway, others were right. You're not listening.

I feel your pain bro, cuz neither are you.

>> Don't really blame you. Best
>> Ben

Same to you.

2009\04\17@011208 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
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I hope this has been cathartic for everyone involved, because it's
fairly painful to watch.

Any hope for y'all getting along?

Best regards,

Bob

2009\04\17@011657 by Jake Anderson

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solarwind wrote:
>
>> Let me tell you a parable. A woman (W) calls her husband (H) to warn him of
>> a dangerous driver:
>>
>> W: Honey, be careful. I just saw on the news that some idiot is driving on
>> the freeway in the wrong direction.
>>
>> H: Yes honey, I see him! And he's not alone! There are tens of them! No,
>> hundreds!
>>    
>
> Now that made me smile! I don't know how it relates to me though...
>  
That is kind of the point in and of itself. If you don't get that then
your not going to get it.
But I'll try anyway.
Have you noticed how everybody talking to/about you seems to be saying
the same thing?
How you seem to always be right and all these other people are wrong,
all the time, even though they have been doing it for quite a while.

Its not that you disagree with them that they take issue with, Its that
you are positive you are right and argue vehemently without basis in the
face of the life experience and references that a number of other people
have. Not to say that your always wrong, but until you can offer
provable statements to counter other peoples "I have done it and this is
what happened" arguments you just come off sounding like a fool.

Nobody is doubting your intelligence, or will to succeed. What we are
saying is sometimes other people do know things.
Its also possible that if lots of people are saying you can be a
irritating and immature it might be wise to listen, otherwise outside
the nice safe confines of high school your just going to get slapped down.


2009\04\17@012806 by solarwind

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On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Jake Anderson <jakeEraseMEspamvapourforge.com> wrote:
> That is kind of the point in and of itself. If you don't get that then
> your not going to get it.

It's not funny anymore when you explain the joke :P

> But I'll try anyway.
> Have you noticed how everybody talking to/about you seems to be saying
> the same thing?

Not really.

> How you seem to always be right and all these other people are wrong,
> all the time, even though they have been doing it for quite a while.

Not really.

> Its not that you disagree with them that they take issue with, Its that
> you are positive you are right and argue vehemently without basis in the
> face of the life experience and references that a number of other people
> have.

Incorrect assumption #1

> Not to say that your always wrong, but until you can offer
> provable statements to counter other peoples "I have done it and this is
> what happened" arguments you just come off sounding like a fool.

You're right.

> Nobody is doubting your intelligence, or will to succeed. What we are
> saying is sometimes other people do know things.

I agree. Tell that to the rest of them.

> Its also possible that if lots of people are saying you can be a
> irritating and immature it might be wise to listen,

Might be, might not.

> otherwise outside
> the nice safe confines of high school your just going to get slapped down.

Incorrect assumption #2

2009\04\17@014754 by Roger, in Bangkok

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flavicon
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You kinda have the right idea there SW, but totally miss an
essential reality of this life in spite of it ...
"going" anywhere is an experience in itself, but proves and realizes little
if anything other than misinformation and erroneous impression.  If you
changed that to "go and live" then I would most heartily agree with you.
However, without living 'there' you/we/I completely miss the unseen cultural
aspects that are in fact the context of life.  Foreign exchange students,
even only a single year at secondary school levels, have a far better handle
on life than you do.  We north Americans (upper or mid) have a very
disturbing tendency to go all around the world with answers ... but we
rarely take the time to listen to the questions before spouting off with the
answers!

Snap cultural medical quiz ... you are a poorly educated 3rd world surgeon
hiding out in caves and tunnels in a war zone; what are you going to use for
IVs?

If you really want to be a doctor in the third world then I highly applaud
that.  But you will be of far better service to the third world if you take
your completed pre-med qualifications overseas to complete your doctorate
studies, and then return home or elsewhere in the first world to complete
any specialty interests.  I can guarantee that most tropical disease or
infectious disease specialists in north America have significantly less
expertise than their counterparts in the real third world:-)

RiB

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:38 AM, solarwind <RemoveMEx.solarwind.xEraseMEspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2009\04\17@022623 by Nate Duehr

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John Ferrell wrote:

> Most of the time credentials get you the opportunities but your own
> intellect and social skills bring you success.

Credentials get you EXISTING opportunities, if you ask me.  Doing
someone else's business.

Knowledge mixed with intellect and social skills means you can make your
OWN opportunities, usually.

Knowledge by itself often convinces a person that they can make their
own opportunities, and they try without social skills, but then they
flop when they have to SELL the darn thing to other people.  :-)

Nate

2009\04\17@024710 by Nate Duehr

face
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Peter wrote:

> During that time my manager who was also the owner of the company made hiring
> decisions based on his interviews, which resulted in disastrous candidates
> being hired. I had a veto right on hiring, being the senior technician, and
> having my own practical tests and interview with candidates. Every time the
> manager oerrode my veto we had a dud employee. Due to the nature of the work,
> bad work meant immediate losses in the hundreds to thousands of $ per unit.
>
> His interviews were based on whatever, mine were based on work tests
> (practical), reading technical English (in a non-english speaking country),
> schematics interpretation and basics like color codes and circuit
> interpretation by schematic (which were in English).

You could extrapolate this out a bit to my experience...

I worked for an organization that had every candidate interviewed by a
cross-sectional panel of representatives from every department, and
ANYONE on that panel had full veto-power, by themselves.  One vote "no"
meant the person was not hired.  Candidates were NOT told this in
advance, but they were told that they had to pass a panel interview.  I
saw many people walk out because they thought it was a "normal" panel
interview where they'd get to talk to the hiring manager later, and
didn't take the panel seriously... and a person from Training or
Accounting shot down a highly qualified (on paper) technical person
because they could sense, better than we techies could, that the person
wasn't genuinely interested in anything but their technical skills and
bragging about themselves.  (Techies often do this amongst ourselves,
but doing it to the Accountant and talking over her head after you'd had
a proper formal introduction, kinda showed you weren't paying attention
or didn't care -- I guess.  Definitely weeded out anyone without social
skills of any kind.)

I can't think of a single employee who was a "dud" in that organization.
  Sure, there were people who were very strong-willed at times, but
confrontations even if they got loud or serious, never led to long-term
inter-departmental problems... people had proven up-front that they
could get along with others in radically different job roles.

I think it was brilliant.

The business model was a "dud", but it grew very fast, people got things
done, and it survived longer than many peers who also had even more
sickly business models...

Ultimately, the place had to stop growing, and "hang on" for a while,
but it never closed... it just had to limp along (on some of the
best-of-breed practices I've ever seen that meant "limping" wasn't
painful, more like "downshifting" or "coasting") until a larger company
bought it up later.

The culture continued into large projects.  Any project of sufficient
size/scope to mean something serious to the company, would sit before
what was colloquially called a "Murder Board", where the final "We're
going to deploy it THIS way" presentations were done before peers, and
the entire project could be re-worked, torn apart, discredited, shelved,
or... if you did your job right... approved.  There was a weekly "murder
board" for small/operational/configuration change stuff... and there'd
be at least an hour long separate session scheduled mid-week for bigger
projects.  I presented things at both types, and enjoyed the hard
questions that were culturally OKAY for folks to ask... in large
projects, I would really pour on the hours and thought making sure to
cover all the bases, and never had a project that wasn't approved
first-round.  On the daily stuff, it was a little more relaxed... and I
had some pointed questions asked about integration to other systems that
had to be remedied, but always got a "provisional" approval.  It was fun
for the detail-oriented folks, and a nightmare for the disorganized or
those with a lack of discipline as it related to their work.

Once that system was in place, no major architectural or design screwups
really happened, only delays due to complexity/code writing speed for
certain applications.

It was truly impressive.  NOTHING got done unless there was a real
low-level technical and conceptual consensus.  I miss it.  Most
businesses simply don't operate that way.  It was FULLY backed by
management... "I don't care how important you think your project is...
I've given you budget approval, but if it doesn't pass the Murder Board,
we're not doing it."

Few of the original "builders" were still there at the point where the
company was in "operating to survive" mode, and growth had stopped --
but it definitely was the most interesting place to work at that I've
ever experienced.

Nate

2009\04\17@030834 by Luis.Moreira

picon face
I do not understand why the hell this guy is still allowed here!!!
Who the F*** do you think you are?
You come around here thinking that just because you want to be a doctor
you are better than everyone else!!!
Engineers are the people that allow you to save life's or be a better
doctor and medicine to advance, without all the contributions that
Engineers have made trough the centuries more people would be dying.
You try to save peoples life's without planes to fly to them, without
instruments, without the machines that engineers design and built to
help doctors every day. You can think of everything that a doctor uses
today, and I am certain that some engineering effort as been put on it.
So please take your cheap morality somewhere else, because if it was not
for engineers most likely you would not even know these people existed.

Let's just all stop trying to educate this guy as he knows everything
and he is on a higher plane that we common mortals can't comprehend, and
go back to our not that important Engineering issues.

Ignorance is always a very comfortable blanket...

Luis
 

 



{Original Message removed}

2009\04\17@031926 by Nate Duehr

face
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solarwind wrote:

> Why the **** do you think I'm trying to become a doctor? You have any
> idea how hard that is? Apparently not. Let me put it into perspective,
> my friend. You know how hard you worked to become an engineer? Ya.
> Twice that effort.

I highly recommend the PBS special, "Doctor's Diaries" for your viewing.

It follows the lives of a number of Doctors from the Harvard class of
1987 for 21 years.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/

(Note the "watch online" link is there, but I swear the off-air version
was two hours long without commercials, and there's only a 50 minute
version online... perhaps "Part 2" isn't up there.  I'm not going to go
watch it to find out... just noting a discrepancy in the amount of time
I expected to see on the web page.)

Various personality types, all successful in their roles as Doctors, as
you might expect from Harvard Medical School grads, various specialties
later in life.

The upside: All seemed more than capable as Doctors.  What's interesting
is the rest of it -- almost all found their lives lacking in some way
and added very interesting and new dimensions to their lives outside of
being Doctors, as they got older.  (Because ultimately, a job is a
job... and jobs by themselves don't fulfill people completely, almost ever.)

The downside: Only one of them had made it through their 20's without a
divorce, and they were all quite bothered by the amount of work and
hours involved, and they discussed any number of other sacrifices they
made to be Doctors, after they could look back a decade or so.  Many
seemed very shallow as people, with little social interaction for
DECADES outside of a few parties... but of course -- had the amazing
skills to make other's healthy.

The only one who appeared truly "wealthy" and had a "9-to-5" job, was
the one who left practicing with patients completely for a lab job
finding reasons that pharmaceuticals failed and caused heart problems
(she was one of a handful of cardiologists doing such research for
Amgen, apparently... according to her), and was basically defending
multi-million dollar patented drugs from a company.  Another ended up
running a massive medical charity system.  While others were more
"traditional" Doctors, but explained that their practices took them more
and more away from patients as they got older, one had a significant
portion of his time (and income) from teaching and developing
opthamology programs in poorer countries, and the ER doc... he was
actually let go over some personality differences (you can kinda see
why) and was traveling all the time as a fill-in, just to keep doing
what he loved... ER work.

I'm NOT judging any of the above, I am just saying it would be a highly
recommended two-part show for someone as serious about becoming a Doctor
as you are.  You might see some behaviors in one or more of them that
will remind you of yourself, and be able to learn from their choices and
make better ones as you progress through your own life.

Figured I'd share... it's an interesting watch even for those of us who
are not Doctors who pursued a career as if it were the Holy Grail itself
in our 20's and had to learn to mellow out a bit and have a real life,
in our 30's...

Trust me on this one... take some psych and economics courses in your
youth... they mean a whole lot more with a decade or so of observation
by your 30's, and as you get ready enter your 40's.  (Someone older can
comment about 50's, 60's, 70's and beyond.)  And seriously, if you can
find a family member or good friend of the family to spend some time
with in their 90's, if they're lucid and mentally "with it"... do so.

The insights I've gained from discussions later in life with my
grandfather who both owned a Ford Model-T once in his life, and lived
through the Great Depression... are astounding.

We (as a culture) in the U.S., generally don't really respect or listen
to our elders.  You'll have to trust me on this one, and you won't...
because I didn't at your age:  Try to figure out what folks in their
80's and 90's are telling you... if they say something's important,
they've had eight or nine decades to discard the unimportant stuff.  If
hindsight is always 20/20, they have at least five more decades of
looking back than I do, and six or more over you!  Listen to 'em.

You'll do fine.  Or you won't, as a Doctor.  But spend some time
cultivating people skills.  Having friends you trust and know for many
decades is something many people simply don't do anymore.  I'm blessed
to have a few of those, including a work mentor, peers, and just folks
I've met along the way who I got along with.

Nate

2009\04\17@033418 by Nate Duehr

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solarwind wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Alan B. Pearce
> <EraseMEAlan.B.Pearcespam@spam@stfc.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Knowledge might, but experience, now that is something else, and you don't
>> get that from a text book !!!
>
> Word.

Which "Word"?  Did you mean to say, "True"?  Or maybe, "I agree."

Just wondering.

Slang amongst as intelligent a group of people as you are addressing
here, doesn't garner much respect.

Anyone can do it:

"Chillin' with the PIC-LIST peeps, Dawg!  Word up, Homie!"

Or, to put that in modern teenager phone texting context:

"OMG!  UR SPEECH IS SO GUD LIKE U SHUD BE A DOC!!!! UR A GEEEEEENUS!!!"

Different communication styles for different audiences.  Something that
comes only with experience...

Or as one popular Hollywood movie stated it ever so humbly as the
actor's character holds a gun to another character's head:

"English motherf****r, do you speak it?!"

(Don't take that personally, I just like the movie.)

Being that this is an international list, many people reading are not
native English speakers.  The English language is screwed up enough
without adding slang to it.

Word?

Nate

2009\04\17@041455 by cdb

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:: worked for an organization that had every candidate interviewed by
:: a
:: cross-sectional panel of representatives from every department, and
:: ANYONE on that panel had full veto-power, by themselves.

That sounds so like the way Red Hat do their interviews. No wonder
each interview takes 3 hours, and then the cheek when one of the
interviewers hurries you up because they want to go shopping.

Colin


--
cdb, @spam@colinspam_OUTspam.....btech-online.co.uk on 17/04/2009

Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk  

Hosted by:  http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=7988359







2009\04\17@083248 by solarwind

picon face
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:34 AM, Nate Duehr <spamBeGonenateEraseMEspamnatetech.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Nowai. Rly?

2009\04\17@091435 by Derward Myrick

picon face

----- Original Message -----
From: "solarwind" <x.solarwind.xspamBeGonespamgmail.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <RemoveMEpiclist@spam@spamspamBeGonemit.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 11:38 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Knowledge and intelligence


{Quote hidden}

<snip>


SW,  I have watched this for a while and now will make a statement.



You say that these posters know nothing about you,  they do know what

you write about yourself.  This can be quite revealing.



I will tell you something about my self.  You Know some of this because of

my off list help to you.



I am now 78 years old (young) and still manage my own small design

and build Electronics Company where I do all the design working every day.

I have had electronics as a hoby since I was about 5 years old.

At my age I can say there are some things you can only learn by living

many years and interacting with people on this planet.



I have a degree in EE with the major in Microwave and RF.  I was in the

US Air force from Jan. 1951 until Jan 1955.  I went to Radar school at

Keesler AFB  where I was the Honor grad in that class.(  As an aside I was

The honor Grad in math and Chemistry in My high school.)  I then taught

electronic fundamentals for almost four years.



I receive disability from service in the Air force so when I applied to go
to collage

I found I had an option.  I could go under the regular GI Bill PL 16 I think

or go under GI Bill PL 894 I Think.  The 894 was because I was getting

Disability from the service.  Under 894 I would receive much better
compensation.

There was a catch.  They would give you a battery of test to see if you had
the

intellectual ability, personality and aptitude among other things.  This was
an all

day testing session and they knew very much about you when you finished

the test.  They would not pay for you to take a course of study unless the

testing said you could make it.



I would not make some of these these statements below except to make my
point.



When I finished the test My IQ indicate I was in the genius range and as a
result

of that and the other test they said I could study any field I wanted.  Now
at this

point I felt pretty good about myself.



I did very good in the University up until starting my senior year and I
became sick.

My Doctor wanted me to drop out until I became well.  Now I had breezed

through this far without much study so I though as smart as I was I could do
any thing.

I was wrong, I have never failed  any course that I have taken but that year

sure did drop my Grade Point quite a bit.  I do not think that you are that
far ahead

of me and I found out that no mater how smart you are there is always
something

or someone that can show you that you are not as good as you think you are.



I think the opinion the readers of the list have of you is from your
statements

on the list.  Some of the statements sound like you are pretty full of
yourself

and this turns mast people off real quick.  You said you did not care what
the

People on the list thought about you.  Well no man is an island and you
never know

from where or how the next help or hurt will come.  So being nice to
everyone is a

very good idea.



Derward Myrick   KD5WWI































































2009\04\17@152009 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 23:28 -0400, solarwind wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Vitaliy <.....spamRemoveMEspammaksimov.org> wrote:
> > Show me the calculator! :)
>
> You do realize that managing high marks in school for scholarships and
> spending hours on hobbies at the same time is not possible.

Of course it's possible, for you perhaps not, but to say it's not
possible is, umm, wrong?

I managed high marks and maintained by hobbyist activities quite
effectively (less on the hobbyist front in university vs. high school
but it was certainly still there). In the end I would say, at least in
the engineering field, it would be unwise to "drop" hobbyist stuff in an
effort to achieve the highest marks possible. While the short term gain
might be tempting, in the long run I've found that the best people at
their jobs are the ones that don't only do their jobs as work, but also
do perhaps a different side of it as a hobby.

Never mind the fact that hobbyist type stuff can be very relaxing
(having a way to reliably relax oneself is very valuable).

For an EE this could be doing something like model railroading, which
has many EE aspects to it.

TTYL

2009\04\17@154249 by solarwind

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On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Derward Myrick <.....wdmyrickSTOPspamspam@spam@earthlink.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Thanks for sharing that. That was a really beautiful life story. I'll
keep everything you've said in mind since you're pretty much the only
person here (in my opinion) that has been humble and far more mature,
helpful, respectful than the majority of this list can possibly hope
to be. Thank you as well for all the help that you have given me as
well.

2009\04\17@155248 by Marechiare

picon face
>> well. Nobody is born with knowledge.
> "Smart" is a measure of how quickly and efficiently you can process and
> absorb this knowledge.

"Apply", not "process and absorb",  solar/Vitaly.

2009\04\17@155735 by solarwind

picon face
I'm not going to respond to this thread any longer as it has proven
itself to be completely counterproductive. I am sorry if I had
offended anyone in the discussion. I don't bring a ball, but I have a
bat and pretty good aim.

2009\04\17@165401 by Tony Smith

flavicon
face
> > I think the opinion the readers of the list have of you is from your
> > statements
> > on the list.  Some of the statements sound like you are pretty full of
> > yourself
> > and this turns mast people off real quick.  You said you did not care
what
{Quote hidden}

"humble and far more mature, helpful, respectful" goes both ways.  You
should collate all of your posts (both on & off list) and see how they fare.

There's nothing wrong with not following that, of course, if others have a
problems with it then that's their problem, but you will find they stop
inviting you to parties.

Tony

2009\04\17@171519 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face

On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:14:47 +1000, "cdb" <colinEraseMEspam@spam@btech-online.co.uk>

> :: worked for an organization that had every candidate interviewed by
> :: a
> :: cross-sectional panel of representatives from every department, and
> :: ANYONE on that panel had full veto-power, by themselves.
>
> That sounds so like the way Red Hat do their interviews. No wonder
> each interview takes 3 hours, and then the cheek when one of the
> interviewers hurries you up because they want to go shopping.

I guess deciding if that's bad or good, all depends if they sat there
for the entire three hours knowing their vote was already "no" or not.
:-)

We limited the panel interview to an hour, and sometimes they ran 1/2
hour long.  Better to have up to ten people (usually 7 or 8) spend an
hour and a half up-front, for not having to live many years putting up
with a bad hire, right?

Nate
--
 Nate Duehr
 RemoveMEnatespamspamBeGonenatetech.com

2009\04\18@011256 by cdb

flavicon
face


:: guess deciding if that's bad or good, all depends if they sat there
:: for the entire three hours knowing their vote was already "no" or
:: not.

The Red Hat interview I attended had started with a phone interview
with the Asia Pacific Manager in India, then a phone interview with
someone in the Brisbane office and then an in person interview. The in
person interview consisted of six people who would be ones future
colleagues asking ten predefined questions with each person having 30
minutes to ask and write down the replies. Each interview was
seperate.  

It got a bit repetitious when the same question was asked time and
time again.

I have noticed that one of my problems is that I think interviewing
should follow a certain logical order (working for the same company
for 18 years does brainwash one on how certain things are performed,
or me anyhow), so when, as in the Red Hat interview a SW engineer came
in  looking like a modern reject of Glastonbury Rock Festival from the
70's (or Woodstock if you prefer), sits, stares at you in a
disconcerting way and then says ' What questions do you have for me ',
when he hasn't said anything to my mind, that would make me formulate
a question. Mind you the lady who said, " Can we finish this quickly
because it's the weekend  and I want to go shopping" , really made me
feel quite put out, and bristle at what I thought was sheer rudeness
and incompetence.

Colin

--
cdb, spamBeGonecolinKILLspamspam@spam@btech-online.co.uk on 18/04/2009

Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk  

Hosted by:  http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=7988359







2009\04\18@012506 by Roger, in Bangkok

face
flavicon
face
Could just as likely have been a staged question to gauge your reactions as
well:-)

RiB

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 12:12 PM, cdb <colinspam_OUTspam@spam@btech-online.co.uk> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2009\04\18@031419 by Luis.Moreira

picon face
This is the problem, you may have a bat but you definitely have no aim,
you are just aimless. Just grow up...

                       Luis

-----Original Message-----
From: spamBeGonepiclist-bounces@spam@spammit.edu [RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesEraseMEspamKILLspammit.edu] On Behalf
Of solarwind
Sent: 17 April 2009 20:57
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] Knowledge and intelligence

I'm not going to respond to this thread any longer as it has proven
itself to be completely counterproductive. I am sorry if I had
offended anyone in the discussion. I don't bring a ball, but I have a
bat and pretty good aim.

2009\04\18@041620 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> The 'fast' problem solving speed gives an idea of ...

> The 'slow' speed ...

> The 'slow' problems usually cannot be solved by people who ...

IQ tests used to tend towards Q&A with increasingly obtuse twists.
In more recent times there seems to have been a large swing towards pattern
matching and similar.
I like Q&A problem solving tests.
I HATE pattern type tests. My head hurts, I feel under pressure and
confused. I'm scrambling at the edge of my abilities or beyong by the end of
the test (which is how it should be).
*BUT* I get about the same 'score' or IQ rating from either type of test
(for serious tests and not the typical internet junk where anything can
happen).
.


        Russell

2009\04\18@041621 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>... when I post long messages, it is because I'm
> too busy (or too lazy) to edit them.


When I post long messages it's because, ... , ... . well, you'd just have to
meet me.
Ask James :-)

Vitaliy at least has SOME idea, and he's never met me.
I could call in some day :-).
I'm in the process of persuading my wife that we should use her 2 weeks long
service leave plus one more week to take an international holiday later this
year.
Being able to afford it or not is largely orthogonal to the decision.
We do faily good cut price travelling largely but it all still adds up.
I'd like to do an Asian trip (you'd think I's have it out of my system by
now)(A whistle stop bus train trip of: Fly: Singapore-HK. Land:
China-Vietnam-Cambodia-Thailand-Malaysia-Singapore sounds like super tiring
fun) BUT my wife would the rather visit Europe. Or just maybe Turkey/Greece.
Or the US. Value for money and other factors may see the US winning. Maybe
do Route 66. Or ... .
So ... .



       Russell

2009\04\18@052636 by Tony Smith

flavicon
face
> > The 'fast' problem solving speed gives an idea of ...
>
> > The 'slow' speed ...
>
> > The 'slow' problems usually cannot be solved by people who ...
>
> IQ tests used to tend towards Q&A with increasingly obtuse twists.
> In more recent times there seems to have been a large swing towards
pattern
> matching and similar.
> I like Q&A problem solving tests.
> I HATE pattern type tests. My head hurts, I feel under pressure and
> confused. I'm scrambling at the edge of my abilities or beyong by the end
of
> the test (which is how it should be).


I find the 'which pattern is next' tests can be solved by eliminating the
'odd man out'.  I figure the aim is to confuse you, so the answers are as
similar as possible.

If there are three answers where the circle is at the lower left, and one
where it's in the middle, you eliminate that one.  Then if three have the
triangle inverted, and one doesn't, take that one out too.  Repeat as
required.  Who needs the question anyway?

Tony

2009\04\18@055101 by Jinx

face picon face
>> IQ tests used to tend towards Q&A with increasingly obtuse twists.
>> In more recent times there seems to have been a large swing towards
>> pattern matching and similar.

That's to minimise educational and cultural bias/advantage. The older
style of IQ test disadvantaged those with poor numeracy and literacy
skills or were otherwise not well-educated or experienced. None of
those disadvantages are indicators of low intelligence. The pattern-
matching type tests reasoning, not knowledge, broadly speaking

For example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven's_Progressive_Matrices

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wechsler_Adult_Intelligence_Scale

2009\04\18@090013 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
Personal abuse is unacceptable on the list - regardless of whether it is
warranted or not
One may perhaps argue that "just grow up" is advice and not abuse - but
please don't argue it here. If you must do so, flame each other off list.
Better still, perhaps, email the admins with specific comments if you have
specific points that you wish to raise.

Thanks


        Russell


Subject: RE: [OT] Knowledge and intelligence


> This is the problem, you may have a bat but you definitely have no aim,
> you are just aimless. Just grow up...


2009\04\18@090015 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
>>> IQ tests used to tend towards Q&A with increasingly obtuse twists.
>>> In more recent times there seems to have been a large swing towards
>>> pattern matching and similar.

> That's to minimise educational and cultural bias/advantage. The older
> style of IQ test disadvantaged those with poor numeracy and literacy
> skills or were otherwise not well-educated or experienced. None of
> those disadvantages are indicators of low intelligence. The pattern-
> matching type tests reasoning, not knowledge, broadly speaking

I'm aware of the reasoning behind the changes - which I find only partially
convincing. As I noted, I perform about the same for either type. But I
strongly suspect that some people are disadvantaged by the new style tests.
I hate them thoroughly whereas I enjoyed the classical type.

                Russell


>
> For example
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven's_Progressive_Matrices
>
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wechsler_Adult_Intelligence_Scale
> --

2009\04\18@095545 by Marechiare

picon face
> Or the US. Value for money and other factors may
> see the US winning. Maybe do Route 66...

But Flight 505

2009\04\18@095924 by Jinx

face picon face
> I hate them thoroughly whereas I enjoyed the classical type

Well, the older style are certainly more entertaining (unless you're
flopping miserably), although entertainment isn't really the purpose

But ISTR you don't like cryptic crosswords. In some ways they
are quite similar to the Wechsler type. Very good for the brain,
crosswords

2009\04\18@131327 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Apr 17, 2009, at 10:12 PM, cdb wrote:

> when ... a SW engineer came in ... sits, stares at you in a  
> disconcerting way and then says ' What questions do you have for me  
> ', when he hasn't said anything to my mind, that would make me  
> formulate a question...

Once a prospective engineer is at a personal interview, taking up  
close to a full day of "valuable engineering time" of interviewers,  
I've always assumed that the interview was a two-way sort of thing.  
In addition to the interviewee getting grilled as to their  
"competence", I assume that my company is also being evaluated as to  
whether that is where they want to work.  There *is* competition in  
both directions, and frankly, I think it's always harder for a company  
to find an ideal candidate than it is for an ideal candidate to find a  
place to work (at least, in "good times."  Sigh.)

So "what questions do you have for me?" is part of my standard  
interview.  You can learn from the resulting questions, too...

(Now, I've also participated in a "new college graduate" interview  
blitz; half a dozen candidates fresh out of college for 30 minutes  
each.  That was ... quite different.)

BillW

2009\04\18@134208 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Apr 18, 2009, at 12:58 AM, Russell McMahon wrote:

> In more recent times there seems to have been a large swing towards  
> pattern
> matching and similar.

> I like Q&A problem solving tests.
> I HATE pattern type tests.  My head hurts, I feel under pressure and  
> confused.

Yah.  SW commented on improving the IQ results of "old folk" by  
feeding them omega-3.  I bet you can improve IQ results just by giving  
"old people" repeated IQ tests.  I find that part of the problem with  
such test (as well as those "basic screening" interview tests) is that  
one gets "out-of-practice" with test-taking in general, and with basic  
and arbitrary questions in particular.  ("I last designed a 12-layer  
PCB with multiple 3GHz CPUs and an FPGA arrays.  The last time I had  
to know which end of a diode was called the "cathode" was ..." (no,  
that's not me.))  I get very ... frustrated with IQ-test like  
questions in particular.  I'll see multiple patterns in a pattern  
question, and wonder which one the test creator had in mind.  Or I'll  
see nothing except how the main idea seems to be to think in ways just  
like the test creator.  (and as SW might also complain, I don't see  
how any amount of efforts/education is going to improve my ability to  
see the correct answer.  Which is good, if the test is really going to  
measure IQ rather than education, I guess.  But there's also this  
conviction that if only I'd 'practice' that sort of question, I'd get  
"clued in" to the way they tended to be set up.  Patterns of pattern  
matching :-)


> *BUT* I get about the same 'score' or IQ rating from either type of  
> test

Huh.  Interesting.

BillW

2009\04\18@163331 by Tony Smith

flavicon
face
> Yah.  SW commented on improving the IQ results of "old folk" by
> feeding them omega-3.  I bet you can improve IQ results just by giving
> "old people" repeated IQ tests.  I find that part of the problem with


Of course there are recent studies that indicate the 'fish oil makes you
smart' stuff to be rubbish.  There's a local fish-mongers van that has
something like this painted on it:

   Eating fish makes you smart,
   Smart means you earn more,
   Earning more means you can buy more fish.

...but they would say that.

Tony

2009\04\18@170208 by Benjamin Grant

flavicon
face
yeah. also gives you higher levels of mercury in your blood. pretty sweet in
general.

2009\04\18@171907 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
I think the general consensus in the medical community, though, is
that the benefits of getting the proper amounts of essential fatty
acids outweigh the risks that come from the higher mercury levels. You
would have to consume WAY more fish than the average person in Western
countries in order to get dangerous levels of accumulated mercury in
your body. On the other hand, the typical person in said countries
does not consume nearly enough essential fatty acids and this,
apparently, has demonstrable negative effects on the human body. It's
not that eating more fish oils makes you smarter - it's that not
eating enough can hinder brain development in kids, lead to a tendency
to form blood clots in blood vessels, contribute to metabolic
problems, and lead to depression as well as mental degradation in the
elderly.

Sean

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Benjamin Grant <spamBeGonebenjamin.grantspam_OUTspamRemoveMEduke.edu> wrote:
> yeah. also gives you higher levels of mercury in your blood. pretty sweet in
> general.
> -

2009\04\18@173147 by Tony Smith

flavicon
face
> yeah. also gives you higher levels of mercury in your blood. pretty sweet
in
> general.


Beats licking broken flouro tubes.

Tony

2009\04\19@021127 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Russell McMahon wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Russell, you're welcome to drop by, anytime. I've got to warn you though,
that I can really relate to Paul*: as a kid I've been very shy, and as an
adult I've retained a good measure of social awkwardness. My written English
makes my spoken English look like an idiot. :)

I would consider your visit an honor.

Vitaliy


* 2 Cor 10:10

2009\04\19@021348 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Sean Breheny wrote:
>I think the general consensus in the medical community, though, is
> that the benefits of getting the proper amounts of essential fatty
> acids outweigh the risks that come from the higher mercury levels. You
> would have to consume WAY more fish than the average person in Western
> countries in order to get dangerous levels of accumulated mercury in
> your body. On the other hand, the typical person in said countries
> does not consume nearly enough essential fatty acids and this,
> apparently, has demonstrable negative effects on the human body.

Is there a general consensus on how much is enough?

I eat tuna 1-2 times a week.

Vitaliy

2009\04\21@044546 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Marechiare wrote:
>>> well. Nobody is born with knowledge.
>> "Smart" is a measure of how quickly and efficiently you can process and
>> absorb this knowledge.
>
> "Apply", not "process and absorb",  solar/Vitaly.

Well, lessee what the dictionary sez...

in·tel·li·gence
–noun 1.capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms
of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts,
meanings, etc.


Also,


smart: having or showing quick intelligence or ready mental capability: a
smart student.


You hear that?! They use the word "quick" in defining "smart"!


I win!

:-D

Vitaliy

2009\04\21@050754 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
solarwind wrote:
>> Last I heard, you don't
>> even have a job?
>
> Again with the personal assumptions. For the record, I do have a very
> good job and I'm pleased to brag on this mailing list (though I don't
> know why I bother) that the employers are so satisfied with my
> performance that I have the third highest paying rank where I work.

Hm, you must have acquired it recently -- congratulations. IIRC, not too
long ago you were saying that you couldn't buy the parts you needed, because
you didn't have enough pocket money?

There's nothing wrong with not having a job, only with acting like you know
everything, without the experience to back it up.

Vitaliy

2009\04\21@051317 by Jinx

face picon face
> You hear that?! They use the word "quick" in defining "smart"!
>
> I win!

How would you categorise a savant who can memorise and play
back a Beethoven sonata by hearing it once, yet is otherwise not
"smart" by common definition ? The so-called 'idiot savant'

Not a trick question, just kicking a ball around

2009\04\21@103307 by Marechiare

picon face
> Well, lessee what the dictionary sez...
>
> in·tel·li·gence
> –noun 1.capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms
> of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts,
> meanings, etc.
>
> Also,
>
> smart: having or showing quick intelligence or ready mental capability: a
> smart student.
>
> You hear that?! They use the word "quick" in defining "smart"!
>
>
> I win!


No, you wrote:

>>> "Smart" is a measure of how quickly and efficiently
>>> you can process and absorb this knowledge.

Google wins. It is quite quick and efficient at processing and
absorbing knowledge. Is it smart?

2009\04\21@130050 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Jinx wrote:
>> You hear that?! They use the word "quick" in defining "smart"!
>>
>> I win!
>
> How would you categorise a savant who can memorise and play
> back a Beethoven sonata by hearing it once, yet is otherwise not
> "smart" by common definition ? The so-called 'idiot savant'
>
> Not a trick question, just kicking a ball around

I think the difference is quite obvious, the ability needs to be "generic"
and not confined to a narrow field.

2009\04\21@130205 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Marechiare wrote:
> smart: having or showing quick intelligence or ready mental capability: a
> smart student.
>
> You hear that?! They use the word "quick" in defining "smart"!
>
>
> I win!


:No, you wrote:

>>> "Smart" is a measure of how quickly and efficiently
>>> you can process and absorb this knowledge.

: Google wins. It is quite quick and efficient at processing and
: absorbing knowledge. Is it smart?

Oh come on Marechiare, nobody likes a sore loser. ;-)

2009\04\23@091201 by Marechiare

picon face
>>>> "Smart" is a measure of how quickly and efficiently
>>>> you can process and absorb this knowledge.
>
> : Google wins. It is quite quick and efficient at processing and
> : absorbing knowledge. Is it smart?
>
> Oh come on Marechiare, nobody likes a sore loser. ;-)

I am not sure I understand you. How is your statement "nobody likes a
sore loser" connected to the fact that Google pefectly meets _your_
definition of "smart" - "Smart" is a measure of how quickly and
efficiently you can process and absorb this knowledge"?

2009\04\23@141942 by Peter

picon face
solarwind <x.solarwind.x <at> gmail.com> writes:
> > What if the fault is the failure to find fault?
> Then I guess I'm not the only one with that problem.

Failure to find fault is not a failure according to the single fault theorem,
but it guarantees that you will not find the real fault when it occurs :)

> > Now, maybe you *are* Galileo, but then you shouldn't be surprised that
> > people with pitchforks want to burn you at the stake.

In any case, be flattered if the lynch gang goes after you. It will mean that
you tried to change something significant (not necessarily to the better), and
they noticed.

> Again with the personal assumptions. For the record, I do have a very
> good job and I'm pleased to brag on this mailing list (though I don't
> know why I bother) that the employers are so satisfied with my
> performance that I have the third highest paying rank where I work.

Er, could we know how many employees that company has, and approximately how
much the next higher paid person makes in your organization, or what job title
he/she has ? :) (just being a little bit evil here)

Of course you know the score about engineering pay and employment prospects now ?

Sorry, I could not abstain any longer,

 Peter


2009\04\23@164015 by Peter

picon face
solarwind <x.solarwind.x <at> gmail.com> writes:
> Anyone can be a crappy doctor. To be good at something, you have to
> have a passion for it (as someone already pointed out.

99% of work is perspiration. The 1% that is missing is original
creative genius, and few have it. Passion is what makes many trundle
on on a path they have no business trundling on even when they don't
show any sign of the 1% alluded to above in the first 30 years of
their careers, often making less money and much less of their lives
than they could have in another occupation. Work is about statistics,
not passion, applied to patients, microcontrollers, cars, children
etc., thousands of them over decades of work. Unless you are born into
money you will have to sustain your creativity and its enormous cost
in money, time and missed opportunities, and *passion*, with those 99%
perspiration you will get paid for (if you have a job).

Creativity is about genius. The growth rate in any industry will
likely be a single digit number, or lower than that. Then, at most one
product in ten will be 'new', and in reality, the rate is much lower,
even in electronics, a very dynamic manufacturing branch. Creativity is
important, it is at the origin of that growth, but look at its size and
at its relative proportion in the larger scheme of things. Fewer than
1 in 100 new ideas ever get out to be seen by the public, maybe one in
20 will make it to some fellow professionals, many of those which are
seen are actually re-inventions of inventions that remained unrealized
by others. 'Deja vu' is something creative people see a lot, get used
to it.  Like constraints and resources tend to lead to like solutions.

The 'boring' IQ tests do not test for the 1%, they test for the 99%
and the tie-breaker questions test for the 1%, if at all. Standard
IQ tests are not designed to rate non-standard people, and in any
case they are not *looking* for them.

Putting a creative person with high standard IQ scores in a cubicle to
do 100% of 99% 'sweat' tasks is a probably a form of punishment. High
IQ people failing standard IQ tests by seeing too many solutions
where they should only see one, just like seeing too *few* solutions
to the question 2+2=?, is likely a sign that they are outside the
target IQ range bracket for that test, and should take another one,
join the Mensa club or somehow use their genius in another way.

Managers who hire only genius alpha prima-donnas (or dons) and
wonder about the attrition rate and about the discontent and the
difficulty to get things done during endless meetings where the alphas
try to assert themselves over the alphas whom they will have hired,
sometimes with limited success, should wonder whether they *want* that
many alphas on each team ? Betas are needed as listeners and do-ers,
gammas must do the night shift and deltas should be hired to keep the
premises clean, and the blind man is likely the best choice for the
pbx and phone reception work. There is a certain structure in normally
functioning organizations which are viable. Nothing I have read here
so far suggests that any of the posters is aware of this, although
they must be, many are experienced enough to make me look like a kid.

Being a good doctor probably requires one to be able to kill as few
or fewer than the acceptable 0.2% of his patients (defined by the
risk of death of standard medical procedures which he has to perform
nolens-volens - knowing that no matter how good the doctor would be,
he could not lower it more, devices and medication being what they
are). A really good one likely will spot some rare disease first and
improve his success rate by 0.01% in that year. A genius one would
likely develop one of the ten or so procedures he would devise along
his career to an accepted standard. If he is also money-savvy or
has a lawyer friend and some good luck, and the right connections,
then he may even profit from it within his lifetime.

The chances for an engineer to achieve the same success or notoriety
are close to zero now, dot com bust, crisis, or not. Most medical
procedures and devices bear the names of their creators. Can you say
the same about the PC, a B747, the Shuttle, the tallest building in
your town, the largest PBX serving 100,000 customers per rack row,
a tool you use often, of a microprocessor ? At best, it bears the name
of the architect or of the main founder, or of a nameless transnational
corporation (and that changes when the building changes hands).

If you want to know where you are headed ask someone who has been there
before, or find the mantraps with your own feet. It is your choice.

Most of my friends from school who went into CS and IT (not
embedded) branched off into management and other golf-related
well-paid janitorial jobs a long time ago, age-wise speaking. Good
for them. They stopped liking what they were doing a few years out
of school, mostly in cubicles or 'travelling' a lot as consultants
for large companies. The money was good, but they chose their sanity
instead, not being H1-B's or their equivalents, and thus not having
that kind of *passion*.

There are countless hobbyists who build microprocessor controlled
projects all over the planet, some good, some bad, most average
for that level. Very few would be commercially viable and extremely
few of those who make them would like to do that job over and over
and over again over 30 years of career. Do not confuse the spotlight
success of a good implementation (by hobbyist standards) with the 99%
sweat and cubicle politics you would be facing if you would be doing
that for a living, guaranteed *without* the spotlight success, due to
NDAs and fear of job sniping, or simply for lack of time and stamina
after 9 hours of work and 2 more of commuting home to do house and
children chores.

Eager beavers always want to change the world and that is a good thing,
unfortunately they want this when they do not have the experience,
and, fortunately, when they lack the means to do it. By the time the
realities of life and economy whittle them down to a handful, those few
who can still muster some passion *and* genius eventually *do* change a
little here and there, usually to the better (but not everyone agrees
to that, the lynch mob strongly disagrees - fortunately the lynch mob
often sits in a court of law nowadays, it is safer for *them* that way,
since legitimate self defense against a mob is no longer politically
correct). Meanwhile one has a life to live, have kids, own as opposed
to owe things etc. Hard stuff, much harder than assembly programming.

Some people can afford to drastically change direction a few times in
life, but not too many times. Walk down a suburbia street in your end
of the woods on a long week-end and look at the houses and cars of the
people on it, try to tell who is in engineering, who is a doctor, who
is a manager, and who is neither, then try to check your impressions
against reality. Just as a game. See who 'wins'.

$0.02 (and the last time I enter any kind of non-technical polemics
with solarwind)

 Peter

(paraphrasing T.A. Edison and a few others, I think)



2009\04\23@230457 by cdb

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face


:: failing standard IQ tests by seeing too many solutions
:: where they should only see one, just like seeing too *few*
:: solutions
:: to the question 2+2=?, is likely a sign that they are outside the
:: target IQ range bracket for that test

That question should be - what makes 42?

The answer of course (if you're a smarty pants or an M&M vestment
wearer) is infinity!

I'll have a blue and green one thank you.

Colin
--
cdb, .....colinspamRemoveMEbtech-online.co.uk on 24/04/2009

Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk  

Hosted by:  http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=7988359







2009\04\24@003104 by Peter

picon face
cdb <colin <at> btech-online.co.uk> writes:
> :: to the question 2+2=?, is likely a sign that they are outside the
> :: target IQ range bracket for that test
> That question should be - what makes 42?

Actually 2+2=? is a rather valid question especially for embedded and IT people
who need to cope with various number bases (and bugs related thereto - radix
sound a bell ?).

42 would be a correct answer for someone in a joking mood who read some of
Douglas Adams and is eager to seek new horizons elsewhere after flunking the
test.

Peter


2009\04\24@025317 by Vitaliy

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face
This post is an excellent example of the well-known fact that 68% of all
statistics are made up. :-)


{Original Message removed}

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